Walsall Born Walsall Player 1 Dean Keates.

Walsall player 1. Dean Keates Footballer
Originally Posted on January 25, 2015

I am republishing this due to the fact that many of you may well have missed it, but it was the one that set me on the way, so thought that it was worth putting it out there again!

First of all i have to say that i cannot find any information on where Dean played his football as a talented schoolboy. The grown up lads, from his schoolboy times, remember him playing on the green, but that’s it, so if anyone who knows anything of the young boy please contact me, via the blog and i will update it!

Dean Scott Keates (born 30 June 1978 in Walsall, West Midlands) is an English footballer, who currently plays as a midfielder, for Welsh side Wrexham. He has won promotion six times with three different clubs. Dean was bought up on The Beechdale Estate, Walsall, where he had a normal upbringing, Like any other boy Dean enjoyed playing football with his friends. Never dreaming that he would make it as a professional Football, he worked hard at learning the skills that he would require to make it at his chosen sport. He would play for his home town club and others (listed below) during his career. I am sure that he will give his current club the same commitment he gave to Walsall as a young lad getting into the first team; He always did that at Walsall.


Keates_walsall keates
Beginning his career with his hometown club Walsall, Keates made his professional debut as a substitute in a 1–0 loss to Plymouth Argyle on 12 October 1996. He made his first start for the club on 25 January 1997, playing the full game in a 3–1 victory over Notts County. He became a regular in the side the next season as, at the age of 19; he played in 48 games in all competitions, scoring his first goal for the club. Keates was a key member of the Saddlers’ midfield in a successful 1998–99 season, playing in all but three games as Walsall won promotion to Division One as runners-up. Relegation followed the next year as Walsall struggled to adapt, though the club immediately won promotion back to Division One with a 3–2 play-off final victory over Reading at the end of the 2000–01 campaign, Keates playing for the full 120 minutes of the game, which ended in extra time. He played 15 games in the 2001–02 season as Walsall survived in the division, though he was released in July 2002.
Keates subsequently moved to Division Three side Hull City, initially on a non-contract basis, in August 2002. By the end of September, Keates’ displays had earned him a two-year contract, awarded to him by then-Hull manager Jan Mølby. Despite new chairman Adam Pearson’s money being pumped into the club on new players, Keates endured a lukewarm season at Hull, playing in 35 league games as they finished mid-table. The next season, 2003–04, was more fruitful with Hull achieving promotion to the newly named League One as runners-up. Keates, however, played no part in the campaign after December 2003 – a knee injury that kept him sidelined proved his undoing, as he could not force his way back into the team.
On 10 February 2004, Division Three side Kidderminster Harriers, now managed by former Hull boss Jan Mølby, signed Keates on a free transfer. He played in eight games as the Harriers avoided relegation back to the Football Conference. Though he played 41 games the next season, Keates and Kidderminster were relegated. He left the club at the end of the season, his contract having expired.
On 1 July 2005, Keates signed for League Two side Lincoln City. He played 24 games, scoring four times for Lincoln.
On transfer deadline day 2006 Keates re-joined former club Walsall on a free transfer after his contract was cancelled at Lincoln by mutual consent. Walsall were relegated to League Two at the end of the season. Richard Money was appointed as the Saddlers’ new manager in May 2006, and under him, Keates was appointed captain. He played a key role in Walsall’s promotion as champions back to League One in the 2006–07 season, scoring 13 goals. Keates was named in the PFA League Two Team of the Year for the 2006–07 season, as well as being named Walsall’s Player of the Season. He was to leave at the end of that season along with stalwart defender Chris Westwood.
Keates was signed by League Two side Peterborough United on a three-year deal on 14 May 2007, having refused the offer of a new contract from Walsall. He played 78 league games, scoring 11 goals, as Peterborough achieved successive promotions to the Championship. Keates was released by Peterborough United on 31 December 2009, having not played a minute of football under new Posh manager Mark Cooper, and managing just 6 games and 1 goal against Newcastle at St James Park in the 2009–10 season even before Cooper’s arrival.
On 21 January 2010, Keates signed for League One side Wycombe Wanderers on a 6-month contract, ending speculation of a return to Walsall or a switch to League Two Torquay United. On 3 April 2010, he scored his first goal for the club against Huddersfield. He was released by Wycombe on 10 May 2010.
Keates signed for Conference National side Wrexham two days after being released by Wycombe. He was named captain for the season, and scored his first goal four games into the season with a 30-yard volley against Kidderminster Harriers. In 2010/2011 season captain Keates lead the side to a play-off semi-final against Luton Town but lost the 1st leg 3–0 and the 2nd 2–1. In the 2011/2012 season Keates remained captain for the season and played in some major matches, including the FA Cup 3rd round match at Championship side Brighton & Hove Albion. A draw at the Albion’s American Express Stadium meant a replay was to be played at The Racecourse which Wrexham lost 4–5 on penalties, the only missed penalty being the first taken by Keates. Also that season he played in another play-off semi-final in which Wrexham lost again to Luton Town. On 31 May 2012 Keates signed a new one-year deal alongside young striker Robert Ogleby.

• 1998–99: Division Two runner-up (promotion to Division One)
• 2000–01: Division Two play-off winner (promotion to Division One)
• 2006–07: League Two champion (promotion to League One)
Hull City
• 2003–04: Division Three runner-up (promotion to Division Two)
Peterborough United
• 2007–08: League Two runner-up (promotion to League One)
• 2008–09: League One runner-up (promotion to The Championship)
Wrexham F.C.
• 2012–13: F.A. Trophy Winner

Rhyl FC

2015   signed for Rhyl as player coach.

Dean Keates
Personal information

Full name
Dean Scott Keates

Date of birth
30 June 1978 (age 37)

Place of birth
Walsall, England

5 ft 5 in (1.65 m)

Playing position

Club information

Current team

Senior career
Years                               Team                                             Apps (Gls)

1995–2002                     Walsall                                            156   (12)

2002–2004                    Hull City                                           50   (4)

2004–2005                    Kidderminster Harriers               49   (7)

2005–2006                    Lincoln City                                     21   (4)

2006–2007                   Walsall                                               53   (15)

2007–2009                   Peterborough United                    84   (12)

2010                               Wycombe Wanderers                     13    (1)

2010–2015                    Wrexham                                          153   (13)

2015–                             Rhyl                                                      22    (1)

Thanks to follower Tony who pointed me in the direction of Cresswell Wanders, Deans Junior club.

These are exciting times at Cresswell Wanderers F.C, the club has been in existence for over 20 years co-ordinating youth football. Who would have believed back then from our humble beginnings with just two teams, we would now be coaching and managing no fewer than twenty teams from Under 7’s and Under 18’s.
Through our web site we were able to arrange a friendly match against a youth team from Vancouver in Canada, Boston in the USA, Bangor in N.Ireland, France and Germany.
There are currently over 250 registered players with Cresswell Wanderers.
Cresswell Wanderers is possibly the largest junior youth football club in both Walsall and the West Midlands. The development plans, aims and objectives for the future is to increase it’s growth, membership, facilities and support to junior youth football in the area.
We would like to take this opportunity to thank all of the parents / guardians that have supported our teams and the club throughout the season. Not forgetting our managers who give so much of their own time voluntarily to make all this possible.

Cresswell Wanderers are affiliated to the Staffs FA and are members of the following leagues:

Walsall Junior Youth League (including Mini-Soccer)
tCode of Conduct

Promote the positive aspects of sport (e.g fair play)
Coaches/Managers to consistently display high standards of behaviour and be a role model for players, parents and spectators
At all times respect should be shown to the facilities and opposition
Respect the rights & dignity of each player
Adhere to guidelines laid down in the constitution
Place the well being and safety of every player above all other considerations
To encourage & guide players
Over the years, the club has enjoyed its fair share of success winning many honours and in the process launched a number of professional careers.
Andy Thompson (Wolves)
Dean Keats (Walsall)


If your interested in junior football then it’s worth a visit, and you never know you may wish to join in with them, Like all kids teams today, I am sure they could do with help both actual and monetary.


125 reasons to be proud to be a Saddler

Whilst searching for Walsall born players today, I came across this blog which was on the Express and Star site, I have to admit that I had not seen it, so thought that all of you Saddlers supporters out there would maybe like to view it. enjoy!

Blog: 125 reasons to be proud to be a Saddler

In a week of celebration here are 125 reasons to be proud to be a Saddler, writes Walsall blogger Mark Jones.

dean smith_edited-2

1. This season – It perfectly encapsulates the roller-coaster ride that comes with being a Saddler.

It’s been good and bad, there’s been fantastic highs and extreme lows, pessimism followed by optimism.

And, just when we were least expecting it, the very welcome development of a Walsall team well worth watching who play some superb football. It is very much on boys.

2. Alan Buckley – Legend as a player, legend as a manager.

3. Andy Rammell – The ultimate No 9, my all-time favourite player of all time.

4. Sir Ray Graydon – Without question our greatest ever manager.

5. Martin O’Connor – Walsall boy, midfield dynamo and he kept coming back.

6. Super Jimmy Walker – The ultimate No 1.

7. Adrian Viveash – A proper central defensive hard-man. If I’d been any good as a footballer I’d have wanted to be like Ada.

8. Gilbert Alsop – The first Walsall legend. When I was a kid he’d be walking his dog past where we played football and he always said hello.

9. Walsall 2 Arsenal 0 1933 – Forget kids in parkas, this was THE greatest giantkilling.

10. Colin Taylor and Tony Richards – My dad’s heroes.

11. Bill ‘Chopper’ Gutteridge RIP – Sad news on our anniversary.

12. Ken Hodgkinson – Met him by chance in the 1980s, a thoroughly nice bloke.

13. Bill Moore – Double Promotion winning manager 1959-60-61.

14. Taking over Shrewsbury since 1961.

15. George Kirby and Allan Clarke – A front two I wish I’d seen

16. Ronnie Allen, Doug Fraser, Dave Mackay, Tommy Coakley, Kenny Hibbitt – Managers who weren’t always great but had their moments.

17. Bert Williams, Phil Parkes, Mark Wallington, Mick Kearns, Ron Green, Fred Barber, Clayton Ince – Some of our other great goalkeepers and Big Mick’s never gone away.

18. The Reverend Peter Hart – Captain for the Milk Cup Run 1984 and throughout the 1980s.

19. Colin Harrison, Nick Atthey, Stan Bennett – Loyal servants of the 1960s and 1970s

20. Bernie Wright and George Andrews – Feared Forwards of my early days as a Saddler.

21. Brian Caswell and Alan Birch – Local boys made good.

22. Walsall 3 Manchester United 2 in 1975 – My first taste of the Saddlers making the big time.

23. Walsall 1 Newcastle 0 in 1975 – Fellows Park bursting at the seams, a proper 1970s mud-bath and a top division side put to the sword.

24. Fellows Park – The sights, sounds and smells of a proper football ground with its own kind of savage beauty.

Floodlight nights were the best, would love to relieve the experience if it were possible.

25. Birmingham 2 Walsall 1 in 1975 – My first away match, over 40,000 at St Andrews and no segregation. Awesome.

26. Alun Evans and Mick Bates – The 1970s midfield duo.

27 Walsall 1 Leicester 0 in 1978 – Evo’s last-minute winner.

28. Don Penn, Ian Paul, David Edwards, Martin Goldsmith, Stuart Ryder – Lads who could have made it big but for cruel injuries.

29. Kenny Mower and Mark Rees – Local boys who blazed a trail, cult figures.

30. Easter Monday in 1980 Walsall 2 Tranmere 0 – Going up for the first time in my lifetime.

31. Staying up at Sheffield United 1981 – Mental.

32. Arsenal 4 Walsall 1 in 1978 – As an 11-year-old hearing your dad shouting abuse at a former Wolves player does tend have a profound effect on your outlook on life.

33. Arsenal 1 Walsall 2 in 1983 – It took them 45 years to gain revenge and, five years later, we turned them over again.

34. Ally Brown, Richard O’Kelly and Kevin Summerfield – League Cup goal-scoring heroes.

35. Rotherham 2 Walsall 4 in 1984 – Totally and utterly dominant. Fact: the mighty Saddlers have never lost a major cup quarter-final.

36. THAT night at Anfield.

37. Coventry 0 Walsall 3 in 1984 – Who were the top flight team? We had even given them a goal start in the first leg.

38. Quality football throughout the 1980s – when there wasn’t much else to celebrate.

39. Preece- Shakespeare- Childs-Handysides – Young, short but possibly the most skilful midfield ever.

40. David Preece RIP

41. Ian Handysides RIP

42. Anton Reid RIP

43. Matt Gadsby RIP

44. John Whitney – A fantastic servant, much more than Ginger Mourinho’s Physio.

45. Micky Halsall – A great servant to the club.

46. Jukey – I worked on his house once while Ken Hodgkinson was working for him – and his legacy of first class scouts and a fine youth development team.

47. Lee Sinnott, Mark Taylor, Clive Platt, Julian Bennett and Manny Smith – proof that we produce great talent even though they move on.

48. Nicky Cross, David Kelly and Trevor Christie’s moustache – A fine front three.

49. Defeating Ken Wheldon – genuine fan power.

50. The beating heart of the fans past, present and future: ISSA, SWAG, the Saddlers Action Supporters, Unity and the Trust – I salute you all.

All the fanzines too– SaddleSore, Blazing Saddlers, One Step Beyond, Chasing the Dream, 90 Minutes From Europe, that other one from 2005ish and yes even Moving Swiftly On.

I wrote for all of the first five and loved doing it.

51. 1987 Charlton 1 Walsall 2 (Part 1)

52. 1987 Walsall 1 Blues 0 – Paul Jones’s corner in a game where defeat to Wheldon’s team was simply never an option.

53. The 4-4 at Watford FA Cup 1987 – Possibly THE most astonishing game ever, a real ding dong.

54. PLAY OFFS 1988 – Do it the hard way.

55. PLAY OFFS 1988 – DK’s tekkers at Notts County

56. PLAY OFFS 1988 – A record 7 goals for DK

57. PLAY OFFS 1988 – An odd penalty shoot out win.

58. PLAY OFFS 1988 – May 30th Walsall 4 Bristol City 0. A hat trick for Ned, one for Phil Hawker and at last we had finally done it.

59. Oo Stuart Rimmer – What could he have done in a better Walsall team?

60. Colin Methven – You never beat Big Colin 1990 until 1993.

61. Rod McDonald and Charlie Ntamark – When times were hard they brightened things up a little.

62. Dean Smith the player – Five good years then he was sacrificed to finance a promotion team.

63. Oo arr Chris Marsh – Stepovers, long-service and some pretty tasty stories.

64. Chris Nicholl – The boss who achieved what was asked of him and liked us so much he moved here.

65. May 1995 Promotion at last. Scarborough away followed by Bury away in two days. The five long bottom division years somehow made the celebrations at Gigg Lane even sweeter.

66. Kyle Lightbourne – 75 goals in three seasons and a cool dude. Welcome back Kyle.

67. Kevin Wilson – Top top quality.

68. Scott Houghton, Charlie Palmer and Wayne Evans – Stars of 95.

69. Derek Statham and Colin Gibson and Neil Pointon – Vintage left-backs who served us well.

70. Tony Barras, Andy Tilson, Richard Green – Hard as nails. Colin Brazier too.

71. Ian Ian Roper – A pure defender.

72. Dean Keates – Local hero, 17 years a professional and still going strong.

73. Visits to Blackpool – Always a riot. A MOC-inspired win in the sunshine in 96 when they’d already awarded themselves promotion springs to mind.

74. Big Fat Jan and the Cup Runs season – Andy Watson’s goals; Forest, Sheff U (them again), revenge over Fat Barry (twice) and Boli’s goal at Old Trafford.

75. Roger Boli – A player who genuinely had you thinking ‘what’s he going to do today’ when you walked into the ground, in a good way … while it lasted.

76. Jeff Peron – Beautiful to watch.

77. THAT goal against Sarfend (August 97) Jeff crosses to Roger, he’s still got a lot to do though….

78. Pedro Matias and Jorge Leitao – Our two finest overseas stars. Happy days.

79. Aranalde, Padula, Bukran, Siggi Eyjolfsson, Darko Mavrak etc – Other notable imports who had their moments.

80. Paul Hall and Fitzroy Simpson – From the Jamaican World Cup team at France 98 to the Graydon Dream Team circa 2001.

81. Darren Wrack – Proper winger, goalscorer and all-round entertainer.

82. Wracky’s goal at Bournemouth (April 1999) – Possibly the best goal I have seen. Go on Daza.

83. Lincoln away April 1998, Manc City bottled it, we waited forever for Wracky to score, defending like Trojans.

We left Sincil Bank working out we needed just two points from three games – even Walsall couldn’t blow it from there.

84. May 1st 1999 Walsall 3 Oldham 1 – Promotion Day, when everything fell into place. Near Perfection.

85. Party like its 1998-99 – I could relive the 1998-99 Season in its entirety over and over again.

86. Beating Albion, Stoke and Forest lots of times.

87. 28th August 1999 – A little local skirmish settled by Tony Barrass, Rambo and a phenomenal challenge from Wacka.

88. May 2000 Ipswich 2 Walsall 0 – Going down with dignity and defiance.

89. Ian Brightwell and Brett Angell – Putting the pro into promotion.

90. Don Goodman with his hair…and goals.

91. PLAY OFFS 2001 – Walsall 4 Stoke 2 – Pedro’s greatest game, Stokies leaving us so soon and all hail Sir Ray.

92. PLAY OFFS 2001 – Walsall 4 Stoke 2 – Shhhhh!

93. PLAY OFFS 2001 – May 27th: Soaking in the anticipation and atmosphere of a day out at a proper Final

94. PLAY OFFS 2001 – The Don equalises , retribution for Rougier and an inspired triple substitution.

95. PLAY OFFS 2001 – BYFIELD! Tony Barras wanting to play on with concussion and sulking because he wasn’t allowed. The final whistle.

96. PLAY OFFS 2001 – Tom Bennett lifting the Trophy at the Millennium Stadium.

97. PLAY OFFS 2001 – Ray Graydon celebrating with his people.

98. Darren Byfield – He scored that goal and a decade later he helped keep us up.

99. January 2002 Charlton 1 Walsall 2 (Part 2) – A kind of wake, a tribute to 442 and a fighting spirit that would soon be laid to rest … with a screamer from Jorge and a Wacka penalty save.

100. Staying up at Sheff U 2002 – Jorgey Jorgey Leitao.

101. Merse – Forget the managerial nonsense, what a talent.

102. Vinny Samways, Paul Ritchie, Gary O’Neill and Mark Kinsella – A different class of player, albeit only seen fleetingly.

103. Super Matty Fryatt – Genuine goalscorer.

104. Dicky Dosh – Grumpy but great.

105. Clayton Ince – Big Bad and from Trinidad. Clean Sheets galore.

106. March 2007 – Wracky scoring late on at Milton Keynes Dons for a mossive point.

107. April 2007 – Kevin Harper and Trevor Benjamin at Notts County.

108. 2006-07 – The return of Dean Keates driving us to the title.

109. The 93rd minute at Swindon May 5th 2007. CHAMPIONEES!

110. Michael Dobson – Title winning captain.

111. Anthony Gerrard – Who needs Steve?

112. Scott Dann and Daniel Fox – Great while it lasted.

113. Michael Ricketts and Martin Butler – both showing a lot of bottle to come back for a second time.

114. Troy Deeney – Prepared to put in a shift and to prepared to try and put things right. Got a feeling he’ll be back one day.

115. Tommy Mooney , Jabo Ibehre , Julian Gray and Steve Jones – glimpses of quality in a sea of mediocrity.

116. Walsall FC Sierra Leone and the Flemish Saddlers – Love these guys for their commitment, glad to have them as part of the family.

117. Ledesma and Flo – Proof that classy players always feel at home in Walsall and they always like to come back.

118. All our loan keepers this season – Karl, Aaron, Ian and Sam – getting better every time.

119. Andy Butler – Captain Fantastic

120. Dean Smith the Manager aka The Ginger Mourinho – the Great Escape January to May 2011 and the Great Revival December 2012 to (fingers crossed) May 2013.

121. O Febian Brandy, Will Grigg, Jamie Paterson, Nicky Featherstone, James Baxendale and Ben Purkiss, Andy Taylor and Craig Westcarr, Adam and James Chambers, Sam Mantom and Paul Downing.

He’s Dean and he’s Holden and he’s N0 5, George Bowerman, Mal Benning and all the ones for the future – sexy football.

122. 19 December 1998 – Walsall 1 Stoke 0. Neil Pointon’s cross for Andy Rammell’s phenomenal diving header to seal the win and my new-born son’s middle name was sorted.

123. My boys – When you are a football-supporting parent there is always a moment of immense pride when you realise that you’ve passed it onto your children and they are hooked in just the same way as you were.

I’m proud to say I’m the father of three Saddlers supporting sons.

124. Friends – As a Saddler I’ve made friends for life (Daz, Al, Evo, Steve, Stubbsy, Ross) who I’ve travelled the country with.

Countless others who might now get the hump cos I haven’t named them personally. You get to see people who you only know through football and people whose names you will never know.

Last Saturday two of the people stood by me (Asps and Belg) were people I stood with at Fellows Park over three decades ago.

Yet we are all part of the Walsall family. I just hope I’ve not forgotten anyone important. And clearly I have left some players and managers out on purpose).

125. So forget what the record books tell you, what the pundits say or the sneers of fans of other clubs, they are only jealous.

Walsall FC are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen.

Daimler (Fleetline)

The Daimler Fleet line (known as the Leyland Fleet line from c.1975) is a rear-engine double-decker bus chassis built between 1960 and 1973 in Coventry, Warwickshire, England, and from 1973 until 1980 in Farington, Lancashire, England. However, the last complete vehicle did not enter service until 1983. It was superseded by the Leyland Olympian.
The Fleet line was built mainly for the United Kingdom market, but a number of Fleet lines had been exported to Portugal, South Africa and Hong Kong.
It was the second of three bus models to have a marque name as well as an alphanumeric identity code. The other two were the Fleet line and the Road liner.
Daimler had a long and respected image in the eyes and hearts of many a transport manager as a builder of rock solid and cost effective buses right up the brands disappearance in 1973. Where Leyland was king of the corporate fleets that existed before the creation of the National Bus Company in the late ’60s, Daimler buses were the backbone of most of your Council or Municipal undertakings up and down the land.
Traditional half cab decker’s featuring a lazy Gardner engine, an open rear platform featuring a conductor complete with bell punch machine and leather money satchel evoke many a fond memory of buses.
Leyland had amazed the bus scene with its all new rear engine Atlantean in 1958, and at this time both Leyland and Daimler were bitter rivals in every sense. Not wishing to be outsmarted by the Lancastrian Empire, the good men of Daimler at Radford in Coventry, under William Lyons’ instruction, set upon designing their own rear engine front entrance bus chassis.
A prototype was developed with bodywork by Birmingham based Metro Cammell. A vertical Daimler D6 engine was used with transmission of semi automatic design by Coventry based Self Changing Gears Ltd. After a period of testing and consultation, production versions rolled off the line in 1961 with established Gardner 6LW power units.
Daimler continued to produce traditional half cab buses with its CVG5 and CVG6 throughout most of the 1960s with Northampton Corporation taking the very last ever open platform bus as late as 1968. What made the Fleet line different to its similar looking, Leyland Atlantean, rival! Was the fitting of a drop-centre rear axle as standard, whereas the Leyland only offered it as an expensive option! This allowed lower height bodywork to be fitted where obstructions such as railway bridges dictated the maximum overall height of a bus. It was not long before the Fleet line became a popular chassis with UK operators.


The Fleet line was a favourite amongst Municipal Corporations. This one is from the vast Birmingham City Transport fleet.

Whereby the Atlantean was Leyland-engine, Daimler remained loyal to Gardner and following the launch of the more powerful and economical 6LX engine range, the Fleet line was soon the only credible alternative to the Atlantean prior to the Bristol VRT. Engine options did change following the creation of British Leyland and the same Atlantean power unit of the 0.680 Leyland engine became optional in the Daimler. After the spectacular flop of the single deck Roadline chassis, the Fleet line was quickly redeveloped to be available as a single deck bus though no where near as popular as the double deck variant.
Leyland remained jealous of Daimler even though they were both now part of the same family; and one or two tactics were played out in order to make the Leyland Atlantean seem a better option. Raw chassis prices were regularly hiked up along with parts costing’s, yet operators continued to buy them partly spurred on by Leyland’s worrying attitude of ‘we know best’.

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Operators still viewed Daimler as a respected concern despite its new parentage and despite some truly disastrous Leyland designs like the 0.500 diesel engine for example. Another event that was seen as a disruption and an attempt to stem the Daimler’s popularity came in 1973.
Owing to the success of the Jaguar XJ6, production was ramped up at Radford, and British Leyland opted to remove all the bus production tooling, after a production run of more than 7000 units, and move it all up to Lancashire – rather than extend the Radford plant. This event caused huge disruption to Fleet line production, and delays soon backed up. Those cunning Leyland men offered readily available Atlantean’s at favourable prices to compensate for delays. Some took the offer but most held out for the Fleet line, but another kick in the teeth for ‘dye in the wool’ Fleet line operators came in the form of the Daimler name being dropped, all future chassis were known as Leyland Fleet line.

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West Midlands PTE bought the Coventry designed Fleet line in huge numbers most with locally made MCW bodywork.
Another sacrificial Leyland Lamb
It was reported that some of the tooling was damaged or broken either before or during the 1973 move to Leyland and it was also alleged that vital parts were missing upon arrival. Delays continued but Fleet line production recommenced and after a trail batch of both Atlantean and Fleet line types, London Transport (LT) placed an order for 679 Fleet lines built to a specification partly dictated by LT.
These proved to be problematic in service though later it was proved that this was caused by LTs refusal to change their engineering plans to match the bus as previous LT designs had been designed bespoke for them right from the drawing board. They were soon withdrawn from service yet dozens of operators snapped them up as soon as they were put on sale.
Other users found them reliable and cheap to run, the ultra long lasting and economical Gardner engines made the Fleet line popular as far north as Scotland or as far east as China who bought them by the hundreds. By 1980 new laws were coming into force relating to safety and noise levels and Leyland stopped production of the Fleet line in July of that year. Leyland had wanted ride of the Fleet line years before and just as the parent company had done with AEC and Bristol despite operator outcry, once great names were killed purely to keep the Leyland name on life support.
Due to bodybuilder backlogs, the last ever Fleet line to enter service rather fittingly went to a Municipal operator – Cleveland Transit in November 1982.

dlj117l SGD-730Glasgow singledecker xdh56

The Fleet line was the second rear-engine double deck bus chassis to be launched by a UK manufacturer, following Leyland’s introduction of the Atlantean in 1958. From the outset, the Fleet line had a drop-centre rear axle fitted as standard, enabling low-height bodywork to be fitted without necessitating an inconvenient seating layout in part of the upper deck, as was the case with early Atlantean’s. Leyland responded by offering a drop-centre rear axle as an option on the Atlantean, but after the two companies came under the same ownership in 1968, the low-height Atlantean option was discontinued.
The prototype Fleet line was fitted with a Daimler engine, but when production started only the Gardner 6LX or 6LW engines were offered. By 1968 Gardner’s new and more powerful 6LXB was also an option, and in 1970 Leyland’s 0.680 engines became available. Gardner engines had an excellent reputation for reliability and economy while Leyland engines were livelier and thirstier. Most Fleet line customers preferred Gardner engines, but the Leyland engine became popular – particularly for a period in the 1970s when Gardner could not meet demand.
In late 1960s, Daimler developed the longer 36′ double-deck Fleet line which was based on the single-deck Road liner chassis. This chassis had a longitudinally-mounted Cummins engine at the rear offside corner. It was designed mainly for export, but one was built for Walsall Corporation Transport.
In mid-1970s, Leyland developed a special version of the Fleet line, known as the B20, with Leyland 0.690 engine, chimneys on both sides above the engine compartment and reduced noise levels. All of these went to London Transport.
As with many British bus chassis including the comparable Leyland Atlantean, the bodywork was supplied separately by a range of different companies to their own designs, meaning it can be difficult to identify the chassis. Some, but not all, vehicles have a manufacturer’s badge on the rear. A notable difference between the Atlantean and Fleet line is that the front of the engine cover, towards the rear of the lower deck, is sloped at about 10 degrees on the Daimler, but is vertical, with a notch at the top, on the Leyland.
Daimler Fleet line chassis designations started with the letters CR, of which the C is reported to stand for Coventry, and the R stands for Rear-engine. For single-deckers this became SR (although not on the earliest examples which were referred to with the standard CR).
This was followed by a code to indicate the engine fitted: D6 (Daimler 6-cylinder, prototypes only); G6 (Gardner 6-cylinder, more often than not this was expanded to the more specific G6LW, G6LX or G6LXB); L6 (Leyland 6-cylinder); C6 (Cummins 6-cylinder).
The standard length of the Fleet line was 30′ but lengths of 33′ and 36′ were also available, which were sometimes (though not consistently) identified by a suffix of -33 or -36 (sometimes with an oblique stroke in place of the hyphen).
Later Leyland Fleet line chassis designations were different: FE for Fleet line, followed by 30 or 33 (length in feet); A (if applicable) for Air brakes; G for Gardner or L for Leyland engine; R for Right-hand drive.

The prototype London DMS-class Fleet line (left) next to the AEC Route master rear-entrance class which it was meant to replace, but which eventually outlived the DMS in London service
London Transport was the largest British Fleet line operator, whose DMS and DM classes totalled 2,646 vehicles (the last 400 were built as B20s), in addition to the earlier XF (experimental Fleet line) class of eight buses.[1] At the time of delivery of London Transport’s first DM/DMS class Daimler Fleet line (December 1970), the Fleet line was a successful model (when comparing sales against other chassis), more than 3500 Fleet line buses having been produced for other operators.
The DMS and DM-class vehicles were fitted with either Park Royal or MCW bodywork, and were given fleet numbers (DMS 1 – DM 2646) under the drivers’ window on the offside and at the rear of the nearside of the vehicle.
The first vehicle into service was DMS 1 at 0454 on 2 January 1971 from Shepherds Bush Garage on route 220. However, celebrations at the garage meant that the bus left two minutes late and thus DMS 31 at Brixton Garage actually entered first at 0455 on route 95. The last vehicle was DMS 2438 also on 2 January, in 1993, returning home in the dark at 1845. This bus operated a farewell tour between Croydon Garage, Chipstead Valley and Hammond Street, London on special one-day only route 459.
A total of 60 garages operated DMS’s in London. The smallest allocation was at Willesden where just 10 vehicles in total ever operated, and the largest at Croydon with a huge allocation total of 417 spanning a period of twenty years from 1973. In the Croydon example, an allocation could be as short as two months or as long as ten years. Croydon were the last garage to operate the type in normal passenger service in what became known as DMS heartland principally because of the other large operational garages at Brixton, Merton, Sutton, Catford and Thornton Heath.
The first batch of London Fleet lines had Gardner engines, but Leyland engine the majority. The final type of DMS, the B20, appears to have been the least reliable and several were fitted with Iveco engines during the 1980s.
DMS’s proved unpopular in London, mainly due to the slow boarding times compared to those of the open-backed Routemaster class. To counter this, London Transport trialled the AFC (Automated Fare Collection) turnstile entry system on some of the fleet. This was coin operated and was intended as a quicker, second boarding option as an alternative to paying the driver. However, the AFC system proved unpopular due to unreliability and by 1977 the trial had been abandoned.
Maintenance was also another major issue, as the parts became defective much sooner. Maintenance costs for rear-engine, front entrance buses were much higher than the older half-cab models due to the inability to separate the body from chassis for modular overhaul. This was also exacerbated by the presence of a 50% Government grant for new vehicles at the time, rendering withdrawal a cost effective option at or around the time of their first (7 year) recertification for service.
Withdrawal commenced in 1979 with the early vehicles being the first to go, the first to leave the fleet in this way being DMS 251 in February 1979, quickly departing for bus breaker Wombwell Diesels in Yorkshire. The very first vehicle to leave the fleet was DMS 1248 which was completely destroyed by fire whilst in service on route 280A from Sutton Garage in August 1978. In London, the successors of the DMS/DM buses were the Leyland Titan and MCW Metro bus.
Many of the sold Fleet lines were sent to Ensign Bus in Purfleet as a dealer for onward sale or spare parts. So many vehicles were despatched there between 1979 and 1983 that the yards became known as the ‘DMS graveyards’ as not enough buyers could be sought. Often vehicles could not be brought out and so rotted away where they sat.
However, hundreds of London Fleet lines proved popular second-hand purchases for operators throughout Britain from 1979 and during the 1980s, including the aftermath of bus deregulation. In some cases, the special modifications which had been built into the buses to meet London Transport’s own specifications were removed at the request of the purchaser, to improve reliability and restore standardisation with other Fleet lines in their fleets. There was also a number of DMS/DM buses sold for export, many departing for the Far East in Hong Kong. In addition, nearly 50 vehicles found operations in the USA for open-top sightseeing work.
Few vehicles have entered preservation, DMS 1 being with the London Transport Museum in Covent Garden, DMS 132, 999, 1051, 1052, 1515, 1601, 1868, 2375, 2456 and appropriately DM 2646 with the Ensign Bus Museum. DM 2646 has been preserved in the Shillibeer livery which it carried back in 1979. DMS1515 is still in its Super car incarnation, from when the Travel card was instigated. 2008 saw a resurgence of fleet lines being bought for preservation and DMS’s 115, 550, 1002, 1911, 2216, and 2357 also reached cherished status, albeit work-in-progress. April 2010 saw DMS2127 enter the ranks of preserved DMS’s, fresh from service at Whipsnade Safari Park.

West Midlands PTE operated over 2,000 Fleet lines of varying types
Second in fleet size was Birmingham Corporation and its successor West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive with well over 1,000 buses, including the first single-deck Fleet lines in 1965. Other constituent municipal fleets – and Midland Red – also contributed Fleet lines to the WMPTE Fleet line fleet to boost the number to over 2,100. The Daimler factory in Coventry was, of course, in the WMPTE area.
West Midlands PTE preferred the Gardner engine, but received 220 Fleet lines with Leyland engines during 1974-76 when Gardner’s were hard to obtain. However, the Leyland’s were found to be less reliable, particularly in the hilly Black Country, and most received Gardner engines during the early 1980s. The 700 or so Fleet lines inherited by West Midlands Travel in 1986 all had Gardner engines and the type lasted with WMT until 1997.
Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive purchased over 500 Fleet lines in addition to a similar number inherited from its constituents (although even in such numbers they were still outnumbered by Atlantean’s). One of these, numbered 583 (BCB 613V) of the Lancashire United (subsidiary of GMPTE) was sold to Chester City Transport in 1992, numbered 79. It remained in regular service until May 2007 and it is now preserved in the Chester City Transport livery that it carried when withdrawn from service. It regularly attends rallies and when withdrawn was believed to have been the last closed top Fleet line in regular stage carriage service in the UK.
South Yorkshire PTE (SYPTE) operated a significant number of Fleet lines during the late 1960s and 1970s. Some were quite short lived although one example ‘1515’ OKW515R saw service in London and Sheffield, then onto private operator Andrews of Sheffield where it served in competition to SYPTE for many years. Preserved in the late 1990s, the vehicle is said to be under local restoration for future bus preservation rally duties.
Another preserved fleet line from SYPTE ‘WWJ754M’ is owned by the Sheffield Transport Group and housed at Sandtoft, a museum near Doncaster. The vehicle was widely applauded as one of the best designs of double Decker bus from the 1970s and is a centrepiece of local rallies. Using Sheffield Transport livery, it is said to be one of the last remaining examples of its type.
SYPTE also saw a number of inherited 1973 ‘L’ registered Fleet lines from Doncaster independents. These were operational on the popular Rotherham to Sheffield route 69 for almost 15 years boasting low floors, large luggage and buggy storage plus blue coloured interior lighting near the cab area.
Most notably though, SYPTE fitted all its vehicles with comfortable sprung leather or fabric seats.
Ending their life with the PTE in the early 1990s, the remaining Fleet lines were placed on short duties between Rotherham bus station and the nearby Asda supermarket formerly at the Eastwood Trading Estate. Upon re-location of the supermarket, the dwindling remaining members of the fleet were sent to Ipswich and Scarborough with the SYPTE choosing Dennis as replacement across the whole county.
Other English PTE’s, plus many fleets in the municipal, such as Cardiff Bus with 90 examples, BET Group, Scottish Bus Group and independent sectors purchased Fleet lines.
Unusual Fleet lines

1 UDH (12)
Walsall Corporation specified some non-standard short-wheelbase Fleet lines, the first of which, 1 UDH [1][2], was only 25 ft 7 in long, had no front overhang and had its entrance behind the front axle. The next 29 vehicles were 27 ft 6 in long with a short front overhang and again only an entrance behind the front axle. The remaining 69 were 28 ft 6 in long, with a narrow entrance in the usual position along with the entrance behind the front axle. 1 UDH had Northern Counties bodywork with wrap-around windscreens on both decks, similar to that specified by Barton Transport on AEC Regents and a Dennis Loline.
Several operators purchased single-deck Fleet lines (Birmingham was the first, in 1965). Rotherham Corporation purchased two 33′ single deck fleet lines with 45 seat Willowbrook dual purpose bodies, no’s 169 and 170. Mexborough and Swinton Traction Company ordered 3 similar vehicles with Marshall Bodywork for White Rose Express services. However they were delivered as Yorkshire Traction 228-230 following the takeover in October 1969. In late 1970, Yorkshire Traction purchased nine 36′ Fleet lines with dual door Walter Alexander W type bodywork, no’s 357-365.
Walsall Corporation purchased one 36′ double-deck Fleet line CRC6 in 1968, which is now preserved.
Unusual engines temporarily fitted by operators in Fleet lines in the 1960s included a Perkins V8 installed in Walsall 8, and a BMMO 10.5 litre unit in Midland Red 5261. Most remarkably, in 1972 a Rolls Royce LPG engine was fitted in Teesside Municipal Transport (ex-Middlesbrough) S470.

bookcover HARPERS-BUS

Two of the many books available.

May I thank Old Buses and Show bus for the use of their pictures. I have not been able to use my own pictures due to problems with my Laptop ( my pictures are on a seperate harddrive which is unavailable to my laptop for reasons unknown to me!) I will get it sorted,

Beechdale RTA 04.00 today

There was an RTA on Stephenson Avenue at around 4 a.m this morning. Here are some pictures taken around 5 hours later.Created with Nokia Smart Cam Created with Nokia Smart Cam Created with Nokia Smart Cam Created with Nokia Smart Cam Created with Nokia Smart Cam Created with Nokia Smart Cam Created with Nokia Smart Cam

The accident involved 2 parked cars and a Vauxhall Corsa. The two parked vehicles were written off, the one on the pavement has a twisted chassis and is awaiting collection by the insurance company. but the driver door will not open because of the damage. The other vehicle is still on the road towards the housing association building, but has extensive damage to the rear end. The Corsa was being driven by a young man and although he originally made off! Was detained by the police later, he was taken to hospital so that his injuries could be seen too. I have no idea what speed he was travelling but the skid mark is 9 of those white line markings plus the gaps, on the road. Luckily NO ONE ELSE was involved. The Corsa was taken away by E & S Motors for examination, but was obviously going to be a write off. It could have been so different

Britain will pay the price for shafting the working class

This article, believe it or believe it not, first appeared in of all newspapers ‘THE GUARDIAN’  on Friday 13th December 2013

Britain will pay the price for shafting the working class
The middle class has taken over, and the price we’re paying is the destruction of all we hold dear

Of the attributes Britons hold dear, the most potent is stability. Our traditions endure, institutions survive. We seem loth to countenance revolution. And yet we have experienced a coup d’etat of sorts and the question must be asked: just when did the middle classes take untrammelled control of the levers? It always was a force; but now there is hegemony. Today, a glimpse of what has happened to the vanquished.

According to the conservative think-tank Policy Exchange, the under-representation of people from working-class backgrounds in public spheres such as parliament and magistrates courts can be reasonably described as shameful. It suggests an inquiry is necessary, perhaps run by the government equalities office and the equality and human rights commission. One can disagree with its diagnosis of the problem. Policy Exchange, true to its leaning, says the diversity policies of the last Labour government were too narrow – too much focus on race and gender – but that feels like scratching at the surface. Still, who can dispute that the problem exists?

One can look to the figures. According to the Sutton Trust think-tank – which focuses on social mobility – 68% of “leading public servants” went to private schools. It says 63% of leading lawyers were privately educated, as were 60% of the upper ranks of the armed forces. Independent schools produce more than half of the nation’s leading journalists, diplomats, financiers and business people. Policy Exchange says just 4% of MP’s  previously worked in manual trades.

A few weeks ago, I spoke to a would-be Labour councillor: a busy man; a professional. So busy that he thought the task of actually campaigning to get himself elected might be too time-consuming. So he placed an advert online seeking someone to do his campaigning for him. The powers that be took a dim view and the ad was promptly withdrawn, but I took to wondering what the councillors I knew in Newham in London, where I grew up and was a cub reporter, would have thought of him.

These were people who had graduated to the council having been shop stewards and tenants’ association leaders. Charlie, the taxi driver; Lew, the tube driver; Jim, the car plant worker. I think of activists such as Sue, the diffident single mother who galvanised the residents in one tower block and then another and then built a campaign that culminating in a clutch of dangerous tower blocks being demolished. There were working-class people in representative positions, voicing the concerns of people from their communities. Fewer now. What happened?

Thatcherism happened. The social geographer Danny Dorling details how the grocer’s daughter from Grantham fractured the post-war reality of the poor becoming less poor and the narrowing of the gap between the very poor and very rich. “By the time Thatcher left office in 1990, the annual incomes of the richest 0.01% of society had climbed to 70 times the national mean.” For them to win, as they did under Thatcher and New Labour, others had to lose. Those who lost most were working-class communities.

With their institutions unravelled and a daily battle for subsistence, how are they to seek office in meaningful numbers? With what support? There are excellent groups building capacity, such as Citizens UK, but still the fundamental problem remains. Dorling recently estimated that of the bottom 50% of people in Britain by income “all are financially insecure”. How is that a springboard?

The total capture of the professions by the middle classes happened. Take journalism. I entered national journalism 27 years ago with no degree – just a year’s college training, funded by a council grant, and after an apprenticeship on the Newham Recorder. That was when journalism was a trade, not a profession, and there were routes of entry for other than the middle classes. People took those routes to senior positions in our industry. With the middle class self-selecting, we wouldn’t stand a chance today.

The country ticks along, stable and first-world prosperous. So why does the absence of working-class representation matter? Because it conflicts with everything we say we want for Britain: inclusion, fairness, equality of opportunity. Because without the broadest input, our institutions become myopic; our democracy atrophied. Isn’t that the story of the last 30 years?

Twitter: @hugh_muir

• This article was amended on 13 December 2013. It originally stated that the Sutton Trust had found that 68% of public servants were privately educated. This should have read “leading public servants” – the missing word has now been added, along with a link to the study



ReBlogged from:W,W,A,K

These two items are being rebolgged from a site called What Women Auto Know, which I have started to follow. It has some very interesting blogs about automobiles from a woman’s point of view, but does it matter what sex we are/ Don’t we all face the same problems when the car plays up?

Why Won’t My Car Start?


This has happened to everyone at one time or another. The questions is, why? Do I need a jump start? Dead battery? Bad starter? Stuck key? Maybe….

What should you do if you hop in your car, push the ignition and… nothing? A “no start” can be caused by a number of different things, from a simple loose connection to a bad starter.

As a mechanic, I begin with the battery and work my way down to other issues that could be causing the problem. I can use sophisticated equipment to diagnose the problem. But like a doctor, the best and most valuable information I can get to diagnose a no-start is by asking you questions.

If your car doesn’t start, know the answers to these questions:

  • Do the lights come on?
  • Does the horn work?
  • How about the radio or video display?
  • Did the car start and then stop?
  • Did the car turn over and then chug before dying?
  • Was there any sound at all when you turned the ignition on?
  • Did you hear, smell or see anything, including dash lights?
  • Has this happened in the past and if so, when?
  • What recent work has been done on your car?

Car Battery 101


We all know what a car battery is, and where it is. And we certainly know when ours isn’t working right! But many women don’t understand what a car battery actually does. Car batteries are just like the batteries we use in other devices, our remote controls, our cell phones, just bigger. In a car, the battery powers the electronic features, and also starts the car.

The car battery kind of works like a self-recharging battery, too. When you turn the key, or push your ignition button, the battery provides a burst of power to start the engine. Once the car is running, the engine’s alternator keeps the battery charged so it will work next time you start the car.


Here are some ways of making your VW campervan big enough for the family!vw+1 VW+2 VW+3 VW+4 VW+5 vW+6 VW+7 VW+8


My thanks go out to the owners of these photos downloaded from Google images,for their use